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  1. #11
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    Hi Fert,

    From what I can recall, this was the result of a trawl through web pages and internet forums. If you have good sources for your information, then I am happy to accept that.

    Was the 20x138B version only for AA, or did Scotti make an aircraft version?

    Chinn says nothing about the cartridges used when writing about the 20 mm Scotti, he just says that the final aircraft version was belt-fed and could fire at up to 600 rpm, which is of course a lot more than the AA gun.

    If you have any more information about these aircraft guns, I would be very interested. The only other source of information I have about the Scotti is an entry (and small photo) in the Oerlikon-Contraves Museum catalogue,which gives a remarkably light weight of 23 kg, a RoF of 350 rpm, a barrel length of 80 cm, 15-round box or 60-round drum magazines. It quotes an MV of 850 m/s, but this seems too high from an 80 cm barrel. Any thoughts?

    PS This is the information I found:

    One report states that in 1939 Scotti proposed an engine-mounted gun with a 90-calibre barrel, with a belt feed and apparently designed around yet another cartridge, the so-called "Short Solothurn" 20 x 105B. However, at that time there were practically no liquid-cooled vee-engines used in the Regia Aeronautica able to take an engine cannon, so this version also remained experimental.
    Last edited by Tony Williams; 04.12.2018 at 15:27.
    Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk

  2. #12
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    Default Scotti

    http://www.isottafraschini.it/eng/Mo...storia_en.aspx

    Und was tun im Unternehmen für ihre Produkte?
    or primary goverment source ...
    http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/sto...e/default.aspx
    :fondo Direzione Costruzioni Aeronautich 1923-1933 , ....
    Last edited by AKON; 04.12.2018 at 18:00.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKON View Post
    http://www.isottafraschini.it/eng/Mo...storia_en.aspx

    Und was tun im Unternehmen für ihre Produkte?
    or primary goverment source ...
    http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/sto...e/default.aspx
    :fondo Direzione Costruzioni Aeronautich 1923-1933 , ....
    I have done my best to search through the links you provide, but have been unable to find any reference to Scotti cannon ammunition. No doubt my searches are not helped by my lack of Italian! I would be grateful if you could point me to any specific references on this subject.
    Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk

  4. #14
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    Alfredo Scotti, in 1933 founded Brevetti Scotti AG with Buerle, chairman of Oerlikon. Scotti cannon showed in 1932 to Italian army was similar to Oerlikon cannon.
    IMG_20180112_0003 rid.jpg

    aircraft MG:
    20/40 with 300 rounds/m wing mounting box fed

    20/90 for firing trough propeller hub, belt fed

    these guns probably used a 20x70 erhardt cartridge.

    Tony, I think you already received a text about Scotti guns from the Cesim. I wrote it
    regards

  5. #15
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    Hi Fert,

    Now I'm becoming confused - which guns used the 20x70 Erhardt?

    I'm not sure that I ever did receive comments on my Italy section - could you send them to me please?

    I have found my source on Scotti guns - a fellow researcher from Russia, Evgeny Aranov, who has a lot of historical material. These were his comments:

    I have several other data on this development of Scotti. I'm not going to vouch for their veracity, but nevertheless ...
    As early as 1928, the Italian inventor Alfredo Scotti, who headed the small company Società Anonima Armi Automatiche Scotti (shortly Armiscotti) in Brescia near Milan, offered its exclusive development of an original automatic scheme potentially applicable to weapons of any caliber. However, the design of the aircraft gun proposed by Scotti was not understood by Benito Mussolini, who solely headed at that time not only the country, but also the Italian Ministry of Aviation himself.
    Since 1931, Alfredo Scotti, in partnership with the owner of Oerlikon Emile George Burle in Zurich, Switzerland, founded the company Brevetti Scotti AG with the sale of part of the rights to their patents to Oerlikon. The result of Scotti's work in Switzerland was the appearance in 1932 of the first prototype of a 20-mm automatic cannon, structurally identical to parallel machine guns. The first version of the 70-caliber gun was a scaled-down machine gun, differing only in the box-mounted magazine box with 20 rounds of 20x100RB, standardized with the Oerlikon Type L.

    In 1935, the second prototype of Scotti's air gun appeared. Automatic gun with a barrel length of 40 calibers and belt feed was positioned as a stationary course weapon for installation in the wings. The type of cartridge used is Oerlikon 20x100RB. The tests of the prototype showed a low rate of fire - within 300 rounds per minute.

    Apparently, the co-author of the development, Emile Burle, who was also the head of Oerlikon, was not too interested in developing a parallel design as opposed to his own guns. Therefore, the development of Scotti's gun in Switzerland was not received. But surprisingly, the design of Scotti's automatics migrated to France to the Hispano 400th series developed by Mark Birkegt.

    There are no direct evidence to support Birkegt's purchase of Scotti patents, but it is known that Hispano-Suiza and Oerlikon worked closely at this time and the two companies actively exchanged there patents until they severed relations in the mid-1930s, accusing each other of patent infringement. It is likely that it was Birkegt's borrowing of Scotti's design that caused the gap.
    Comments gratefully received!
    Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk

  6. #16
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    Hello Tony,
    20x110 is new to me. Pics evidence show the Oerlikon type ammunition, (20x100 or 20x110) is not easy to knows just talk about Oerlikon ammunition.

    My guess about 20x70 erhardt on aircraft MG 20/40 and 20/90 it's due to a SMI drawing about 20x70 erhardt ammunition dated 1936 named (bossolo modello F per mitragliera Scotti 20mm = model F case for Scotti 20mm MG). shell is a classic inert oerlikon. unfortunely this drawing is covered by copyright and I can not show here.
    regards

  7. #17
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    Hi fert,

    The photos below were in the ECRA Bulletin 635, showing the Scotti 20 x 110 (with a Hispano rimless base and an Oerlikon sloping shoulder):

    20x110 Scotti case.JPG

    20x110 Scotti headstamp.JPG

    As you can see, the headstamp is very helpful!

    There were obviously close links between Scotti and Oerlikon, and also between Oerlikon and Hispano Suiza at that time. It seems likely that Scotti modified the base of the Oerlikon 20 x 110RB case to suit his locked-breech mechanism. I think that initially, the first prototype of the Hispano HS 404 may have used this same case before modifying the shoulder.

    It would seem very odd if Scotti used the Erhardt case, which belonged to Rheinmetall but was obsolete by then, rather than the very similar Oerlikon F. Actually, even using the Oerlikon F would have been strange - the small propellant load would have had difficulty in pushing the projectile out to the end of a 90-calibre barrel!

    We know from the above photos of only one round used in the Scotti aircraft cannon, but since the Italians had already adopted the 20 x 138B for anti-aircraft cannon, and the 20 x 105B for anti-tank rifles, it seems possible that one of these might have been chosen by 1939.
    Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk

  8. #18
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    .... Il fondo L2 «Difesa Contraerea e Protezione Antiaerea» consta di 117 buste (1929-1944) :
    ...
    -Busta 40,Fascicolo 549. Artiglieria. 1940. 2 lucidi.Sottofascicolo VIII Cannone Oerlikon da .
    -Busta 60,Fascicolo 797.IDEM. Mitragliere Scotti 20 mm. Om.
    -Busta 60,Fascicolo 789. Ministero dellaGuerra.Treno armato c/20 1941-42 , Sottofascicolo I,II,III,IV
    -Busta 60 Fascicolo 802. IDEM Mitragliera Oerlikon 20 mm.
    -Busta 61,Fascicolo 807 ,Arma Scotti da 20 mm.
    ....


    +
    ...
    Diplomatische Dokumente der Schweiz 1848-1975 .
    http://dodis.ch/R15459

    25.1.1935 18675 Schreiben Kriegsmaterialexport Über die Geschäfte mit China und Italien. de
    12.7.1935 18670 Schreiben Kriegsmaterialexport Über die Firma Brevetti-Scotti AG in Zürich, an der die Werkzeugmaschinenfabrik Oerlikon beteiligt ist.

    +
    ....
    Kombinierte Suche: Oerlikon

    28.11.1924 18664 PV Kriegsmaterialexport Über die Entwicklung und Produktion von Kanonen. de
    3.12.1932 18669 L Kriegsmaterialexport Befürchtung, dass Deutschland die Firma Werkzeugmaschinenfabrik Oerlikon als rein schweizerische Firma betrachten werde (und damit keine Aufträge vergeben werde).
    Last edited by AKON; 06.12.2018 at 21:39.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Williams View Post
    Hi fert,

    The photos below were in the ECRA Bulletin 635, showing the Scotti 20 x 110 (with a Hispano rimless base and an Oerlikon sloping shoulder):

    20x110 Scotti case.JPG

    20x110 Scotti headstamp.JPG

    As you can see, the headstamp is very helpful!

    There were obviously close links between Scotti and Oerlikon, and also between Oerlikon and Hispano Suiza at that time. It seems likely that Scotti modified the base of the Oerlikon 20 x 110RB case to suit his locked-breech mechanism. I think that initially, the first prototype of the Hispano HS 404 may have used this same case before modifying the shoulder.

    It would seem very odd if Scotti used the Erhardt case, which belonged to Rheinmetall but was obsolete by then, rather than the very similar Oerlikon F. Actually, even using the Oerlikon F would have been strange - the small propellant load would have had difficulty in pushing the projectile out to the end of a 90-calibre barrel!

    We know from the above photos of only one round used in the Scotti aircraft cannon, but since the Italians had already adopted the 20 x 138B for anti-aircraft cannon, and the 20 x 105B for anti-tank rifles, it seems possible that one of these might have been chosen by 1939.
    I know the case, identified in CESIM forum years ago.
    Italians didn't adopt 20x105 ammounition for anti tank rifle, only 20x138 adopted.
    about 20x70 erhardt I agree with you, but SMI drawing this shows

    why are you so sure about 20x110 scotti used in aircraft guns? Could be used in anti aircraft guns, or just an experiment, no sources about.
    until now what we know about scotti aircraft guns was only the 20x70 erhardt from SMI drawings. nothing else.
    best regards

  10. #20
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    Thanks AKON, I'll take a look at those.

    Fert, my main reference concerning the aircraft guns is Chinn. I think he only mentions aircraft guns in his section on the 20 mm Scotti, and he writes about the final versions being belt-fed and achieving 600 rpm. The AA gun did of course have to adopt the same 20 x 138B as the Breda. Furthermore, I have a photo of a "bare" Scotti 20 mm, without any form of mounting, and both the appearance of the gun and the description (both in the Oerlikon Contraves museum catalogue) suggest an aircraft gun.

    I believe that the contents of the former Oerlikon Contraves museum are now here: http://www.festungsmuseum.ch might be worth a visit sometime!
    Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarryhs.co.uk

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