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PzGr40
27.06.2003, 01:11
Cutaway model of a 85 mm Armour piercing high explosive tracer shell .The shell is of Czech design and manufacturing. The shell was fired from the 85mm M52 gun. Armour penetration: 123mm at 1000 mtrs, weight of projectile: 9,2 kg , Vo.: 820 m/s. The projectile exists of the shellbody , the nose hardened, and a cavity in the bottom for a 43 grams H10 (hexogen with 10% wax) charge. On top of the projectile is the piercing cap, preventing the projectile from shattering at impact. On top of the piercing cap is the windcap that reduces the drag caused by the air. Functioning of fuze PD-30; the springloaded firingpin is withheld from traveling into the firingcap by two balls in a groove in the firingpin. the balls are held in place by two verticaly placed brass cilinders. At impact , the cilinders travel forward , breaking through the dowel pins, thereby releasing the balls that hold the firingpin.. The firingpin however is held in forward position by the enormous negative acceleration which occurs during the piercing of the target.As soon as the target is passed and the velocity becomes constant , the firing pin travels into the firing cap, exploding it. The flame travels up through the hole for the spring , straight into the detonator, exploding the shell. Note that in the shellcase there is a bundle of powdersticks between the granular powder. This is presumably done to make it easier to put the powdercharge , packed in a linnen bag in the shellcase (keeps it straight). On the bottom is a charge of fine powder to fast and evenly ignite the main powder charge. This Czech shell bears a great resemblance to the German 88 mm flak 18 shell. *****TEXT EDIT ON 28-06-03 and 10-07-03****** Coulor of explosive charge should be silvergrey instead of pink , I'll change that later.

Vince
27.06.2003, 07:02
What is the designation of the fuze? I have never seen this before. The projectile's shape is also interesting.

Regards,
Vince

guardianangel
27.06.2003, 16:31
Hi Pzgr40! and Vince!

This ammunition is not Russian. It is Czech. Russian's prouced AP shell with windshield and cap, but it had conical head not ogival. That name was BR-412D with DBR-2 base fuze.
This shell is Czech produced with PD-30 base fuze. Mainly the same as the German BdZ 5127. See the picture :)

Best regards: GA

PzGr40
28.06.2003, 14:29
Thanks for the info , I was told it was Russian , I will edit the text immediately. I looked the Czech 85 mm gun up in Jane's Towed artillery and changed the other data accordingly. Greetings. Pzgr40

guardianangel
29.06.2003, 23:52
Sorry but the BR-412D is the russian 100 mm AP shell code. The 85 mm is BR-365D... Or other letter but the number is between 300 and 400 because this area is held for the 85 mm calibre. So sorry, and thanks the note for Vince!

GA

Milo
30.06.2003, 11:45
Noch ein Fehler ist dort. Geschoss ist nicht mit Nitropenta, sondern mit H10 (hexogen mit 10% Wachs) gefullt. Gewicht des Sprengstoffes 0,043 kg.

Milo
30.06.2003, 13:05
GA: Ja, 85 mm russisch hat BR-365 Bezeichnung, mit MD-5 oder MD-7 Bodenzunder.

PzGr40
11.07.2003, 00:16
Thanks , I've changed the text now. I'll edit the pictures later

russian_ammo
26.09.2004, 10:59
Nice round. I have two 85mm APC rounds but no cutaway.

PzGr40
27.09.2004, 11:35
I have only one cutaway and to my regret not one for trade :( . It's quite a job to section one, and I am not really waiting for a repeat. :roll:. If you want to try one yourself , you'll find it's not difficult , just time consuming to make one. :?

russian_ammo
28.09.2004, 09:12
I will definately try one myself, but not on my prized 85mms to start with. What tools do you use? It is a very good, straight cut on your round, which must be difficult to achieve?

richardb
13.06.2007, 16:53
Hi all,

I picked up one of the projectiles a very long time ago, when I first started collecting ordnance. At the time, I was told it was a German 8,8cm Pzgr 39, and as i didnt have a case, I didn't suspect it wasn't 8,8cm dia.

After measuring it one day, I determined it was 85mm dia, and eventually, through this very thread, I now believe it is a BR-365 projectile in excellent condition..

I would now like to try and determine what guns used it, and what dates it was used.

The thread says the Czech M-52 and battlefield.ru indicates, D-5T, D-6T and, S-53 & ZiS-S-53, used by Russian AFV's

As I do not know much about Czech or Russian ordnance, can anyone clarify these points. I would am trying to confirm what the projectile is, and where (guns) and when it was used.

regards Rich

Dottor
15.06.2007, 01:12
The Russian name for it is БР-365.
Here are pages about guns in Russian
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%A1-1
http://www.around.spb.ru/fort/kaur/gun/gun.php
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/T34_85/t34_85_2.html
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/tth/table4.html
http://easyget.narod.ru/tank/sy_85.html

You can use automatic translation tool here (choose "Russian to English)
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

U.S.S.R. PROJECTILE, 85-MM, APHE-T, BR-365
Ordnance used with:
UBR-365, CARTRIDGE, 85-MM, APHE-T
MD-10, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-5, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-7, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-8, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
N.E.W. 68.00 G

U.S.S.R. PROJECTILE, 85-MM, APHE-T, BR-365K
Ordnance used with:
UBR-365K, 85-MM, CARTRIDGE, APHE-T
MD-10, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-7, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-8, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD

U.S.S.R. CARTRIDGE, 85-MM, APHE-T, UBR-365K
Ordnance used with:
BR-365K, 85 MM, APHE-T
MD-10, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-5, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-7, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-8, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
KS-12, AIR DEFENSE GUN, 85MM, TOWED

U.S.S.R. CARTRIDGE, 85-MM, APHE-T, UBR-365
Ordnance used with:
BR-365, 85-MM, APHE-T
MD-10, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
MD-8, FUZE, PROJECTILE, BD
KS-12, AIR DEFENSE GUN, 85MM, TOWED

Attachment UBR_365 deleted because of doubts in authenticity.

Dottor
15.06.2007, 01:21
Last, but not least...

richardb
15.06.2007, 17:05
Hi Dotter,

Thanks for the excellent reply, but I am still a little confused....

Whenever I lookup the Russian 85mm projectiles, I come across the type you have shown BR-365K. However mine does not look like this, it looks like the one PzGr40 has sectioned.

1. What is the difference between the BR-365K, and the one that PzGr40 and I have?. Is it a different model number - ie K for APCBC, P for Sub-Calibre?

2. Is this projectile Post War Czech for use by the Czech army in Russian produced armour?

regards Rich

Dottor
16.06.2007, 03:56
BR-365 & BR-365K are the different types.
BR-365 is obtuse-type with ballistic cap,
BR-365K is sharp-type (sharp head).

I think, that your variant is not 365. It is normal Russian projectile, I think "post WWII". Can be made not in USSR. Gun name - S-31 (for KV-85 tank). Can be used in other 85 mm systems.

U.S.S.R. CARTRIDGE, 85-MM, APHE-T, UBR-367 WITH
PROJECTILE BR-367

Ordnance used with:
TYPE 367, 85-MM, CARTRIDGE, APHE-T
UBR-367, 85-MM, CARTRIDGE, APHE-T
BR-367, 85-MM, APHE-T
TYPE 367, 85-MM, APHE-T
TYPE 376, 85-MM, APHE-T
DBR, FUSE, PROJECTILE, BD
DBR-2, FUSE, PROJECTILE, BD
N.E.W. 127.00 G
NW 9.2 kg

Loslau
16.06.2007, 19:31
Hi,

Dottor has right.
richardb, your 85' is modern projectile.
I never saw Russian ww2 85mm anti-tank projectile with ballistic cap.

On photo; two oryginal ww2 anti-tank projectile BR-365.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4281/dsc00807iq8bj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Next photo, oryginal ww2 russian 85mm amunition;
1. Anti-tank round UBR-365.
2. HE round OU-367K.
3. HVAP round UBR-365P

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/726/dsc00853ap8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Regards

Vince
16.06.2007, 22:44
I never saw Russian ww2 85mm anti-tank projectile with ballistic cap.



There are many of them here in Hungary. They have base plate and MD-7 fuze.
Although i've never seen the original soveit manuals, the "K" in the appendix of designation of the AP shells is usually means pointed projectile without AP and ballistic cap.
I think BR-365 is the ballistic capped shell, and BR-365K is the pointed shell with MD-8 fuze (afterwar modified with deeper fuze cavity to accept the larger tracer)
The czech shell's designation is 85mm PSV

Regards,
Vince

marty_01
17.06.2007, 04:44
NVA Scusstafeln (East German Army) for the Soviet 85mm Tank gun identifies 85mm BR-365 as APBC -- Armor piercing with a ballistic cap.

M. Svirin's manual on Soviet Tank Artillery also identifies BR-365 in the same way the East German Army manual does. Moroever BR-365 is has a wind screen or ballistic cap.

85mm BR-365K is identified as uncapped armor piercing.

The image below is from M.Svirin's Manual on Soviet Tank Artillery showing 85mm BR-365 as being capped -- APBC -- Armor Piercing Ballistic Capped.

marty_01
17.06.2007, 04:46
The image below is from the East German Army manual on the 85mm Tank Gun. It shows BR-365 as capped -- APBC -- 85mm mit Haube.

marty_01
17.06.2007, 04:52
Please see my two previous posts and images on Page-2 of this thread regarding BR-365.

The image below is also scanned from the East German Army's schusstafeln for the 85mm Tank Gun. This shows 85mm BR-365K as being an uncapped armor piercing projectile. 85mm BR-365 mit ogival kopf.

Simple AP -- or if you want to be fancy AP-HE-T. Armor Piercing with High Explosive Bursting Charge and Tracer Element.

Dottor
18.06.2007, 04:19
I see 3 little differences between projectiles, posted by PzGr40 and richardb. And some differences between this two projectiles and all other pictures - the main differense can be seen in the middle. But the biggest difference may be in a part with fuse - but it is not seen on the last pictures of UBR-365. Have anybody BR-365 with ballistic cap and long bottom, like BR-365K? If yes, and BR-365 have a long bottom - then I think, that BR-367 looks alike first 2 projectiles.

richardb
18.06.2007, 22:52
Dotter, Marty_01, Vince, Loslau, Pzgr40

Knowing what we now know, is anyone brave enough to name the projectile that PzGr40 and I have??? (or both projectiles if there are different)

- I think it is very clear it is not a BR-365 or BR-365K projectile??
- I think it is also seems clear to me that is not a BR-367??

Could it be a a post war "Ausf B" of the BR-365
Could it be a completely different design to the BR-365 made by the Czech's but given the same name?

Rich

Vince
19.06.2007, 03:31
Rich,

Both of you have the same Czech shell.
It's designation -as i wrote in my previous post- is 85mm PSV

Regards,
Vince

Vince
19.06.2007, 04:45
I found the original BR-365 in a Finnish manual

Dottor
19.06.2007, 14:33
Rich,

Both of you have the same Czech shell.
It's designation -as i wrote in my previous post- is 85mm PSV

Regards,
Vince

On the finnish picture of BR-365 I see "85 PSV" in top right korner :)
So, "long tail" of BR-365 can be seen on finnish picture - and I think, that the subject being discussed (you tell us, that it is Czech - let it be) is "Ausf." of BR-367, not BR-365.

richardb
19.06.2007, 23:41
I think you are both right.
It seems extremely close to the picture Vince has found. However, the dimensions aren't quite the same, and it doesn't have a "boat tail". The projectile measures about 327mm tall without the fuze.
Vince, do you have pictures of a "later" BR-367?
Rich

marty_01
20.06.2007, 06:28
Dotter, Marty_01, Vince, Loslau, Pzgr40

Knowing what we now know, is anyone brave enough to name the projectile that PzGr40 and I have??? (or both projectiles if there are different)

- I think it is very clear it is not a BR-365 or BR-365K projectile??
- I think it is also seems clear to me that is not a BR-367??

Could it be a a post war "Ausf B" of the BR-365
Could it be a completely different design to the BR-365 made by the Czech's but given the same name?

Rich

Hi Rich:

I'm afraid I am guilty of inadvertently trying to hijack the thread. My interest was more along the lines of whether or not there is a consensus amongst the forum members on what constitutes 85mm BR-365 and what constitutes 85mm BR-365K. I’ve been under the impression -- based on the East German schusstafeln -- that BR-365 is ballistic capped APBC, and that BR-365K is simple AP. Is everyone here in agreement with that, or is there reason to think there is an error in the schusstafeln?

Let me see what I have in my reference materials for BR-367. I may have a sectional with precise dimensions. This might help pin things down.

Any chance your projectile is German produced 85mm APCBC ammunition used in captured Soviet 85mm guns? The Germans produced their own ammunition for captured Soviet 76.2mm guns -- APCBC. As I recall, the Germans were not particularly fond of boattails on their APCBC ammunition.

Regards
marty

marty_01
20.06.2007, 08:20
Couldn't any schematics of Czech BR-367, but attached is Chinese BR-367. Perhaps the dimensions on the drawing might help with identification?

marty_01
20.06.2007, 08:54
my rather crude overlay. alot of the features seem to line up. but...

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/9935/22222mz4.th.jpg (http://img159.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22222mz4.jpg)

Dottor
20.06.2007, 12:57
...
My interest was more along the lines of whether or not there is a consensus amongst the forum members on what constitutes 85mm BR-365 and what constitutes 85mm BR-365K. I’ve been under the impression -- based on the East German schusstafeln -- that BR-365 is ballistic capped APBC, and that BR-365K is simple AP. Is everyone here in agreement with that, or is there reason to think there is an error in the schusstafeln?
...

Regards
marty

BR-365 is a ballistic capped projectile, and BR-365K has no BC. Both have explosives inside.

Vince
20.06.2007, 14:26
The easiest way to discern the BR-367 from the PSV is that the PSV has a bit ogival AP cap while the BR-367's is conical.

So here is the summary of the four versions:
BR-365: Boattail, only ballistic cap without AP cap, 2 breakup grooves, MD-5 fuze
BR-365K: Boattail, no ballistic and AP cap, 1 or 2 breakup grooves, MD-8 fuze
BR-367: conical AP and ballistic cap, no breakup grooves, DBR-2 fuze
PSV: ogival AP and ballistic cap, no breakup grooves, PD-30 fuze

marty_01
21.06.2007, 08:28
Dotter & Vince (and everyone else)

OK, for posterity.

The Chinese version of 85mm BR367 has both ballistic cap and penetration cap. So it is APCBC. b]A[/b]rmor Piercing -- penetration Cap -- Ballistic Cap (or windscreen)

Do all other countries version of BR-367 also included a penetration cap? Can we say all versions of BR-367 is APCBC?

85mm Psv has no penetration cap -- is this correct? It is APBC: Armor Piercing -- Ballistic Cap)?

Finally, does anyone here think that during WWII 85mm BR-365 was simple AP (no ballistic cap and no penetration cap)? Perhaps following the war and introduction of 85mm APBC the ballistic capped version became BR-365, and the uncapped projectile became BR-365K. Just throwing out a question as I think we have all seen drawaings and photos that ID BR-365 as both AP and APBC.

Vince
21.06.2007, 11:11
85mm Psv has no penetration cap -- is this correct? It is APBC: Armor Piercing -- Ballistic Cap)?



No. Psv has AP cap, so it is an APCBC. See PzGr40's cutaway in the first post of the topic.



Finally, does anyone here think that during WWII 85mm BR-365 was simple AP (no ballistic cap and no penetration cap)? Perhaps following the war and introduction of 85mm APBC the ballistic capped version became BR-365, and the uncapped projectile became BR-365K. Just throwing out a question as I think we have all seen drawaings and photos that ID BR-365 as both AP and APBC.

No. Ballistic capped BR-365 was definitely a WWII round. We've found many of them in Hungary. I think drawings showing BR-365 as a simple AP shell are mis-identified.

Regards,
Vince

marty_01
22.06.2007, 09:53
Okee Dokee. Thanks.

dieter
17.03.2012, 08:23
1. Anti-tank round UBR-365.
2. HE round OU-367K.
3. HVAP round UBR-365P



Hallo Loslau,
welche farbe hatten diese Geschosse? Ich meine Kriegsausfuhrung. Und auch BR-365K. Danke

petrwarry
22.06.2013, 22:15
hi . i'm new here and rather beginner with ammo.
i'm just trying to restore 85mm AP round (postwar made unfortunately) and can't find any Soviet colour schemes for wartime ammo rounds,even mr.google failed as it's spammed with W.O.T. experts. my digital camera broke down recently,i will try my obsolete mobil phone :-)
cheers guys.

17446

x
23.06.2013, 02:28
Green, grey or no paint at all, just greased.

petrwarry
11.07.2013, 19:22
thank you.
Soviet green? the same like on helmets etc.?
i'm also going to paint composite AP nad HE 76,2 mm rounds , still stuck with its wartime colours.
i'm rather beginner and don't know where to look for infos yet.
cheers

Nabob
11.07.2013, 21:02
Hello, this is also the answer to a question in this thread
http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?6478-Quiz
The 85-JPSv is a Czech round developed after the war for 85mm weapons (Czech and Soviet).

After WW2 Czechoslovakia continued to produce weapons and ammunition for the Czechoslovak army and for export, there were three main directions of construction.


Pre-war Czechoslovak designs
German designs
Soviet designs

As the Czech factories were producing German (and Czech) ammunition for the Nazis, the technology of manufacture and basic construction features continued to appear in post war materiel.
The weapons, used by the Czechoslovak army after the war, were mainly prewar Czech, German, Soviet and British.
After the Communist Party came to power a strict unification of ammunition was implemented.
The 85 JPSv round is a classic example, of the Czech approach to unification with soviet ammunition. The rounds are interchangeable, but the construction of the projectile is Czech (but one can see the German heritage).
It was used with the 85mm tank guns of the T-34, 85mm SP guns, the 85mm fortification gun 44/59, the 85mm guns vz.52 and 52/55 and 85mm AA gun vz. 39S. There was also a round 85-JPSv for the 85mm AA gun vz. 44 that had the same dimensions but the muzzle velocity was higher.
In the 50’s there was a change in designation:
OPGN changed to JPSv – armor piercing- tracer round
OPG changed to PSv – AP-T projectile
The round was manufactured with copper or iron driving bands (incredibly the Czech designation for iron bands is “Fes”).
The projectile was fuzed with PD 30 (there are two variants with minor differences) and later with dz-30 fuzes. The manual Tank-IV-1 from 1951 gives also the fuze PD 13/30.
There was also a round JPPlSv with PPLSv projectile, Pl- means Plný –full without explosive or fuze.
The basic data are:
Weight: 15,9kg
Projectile: 9,200 kg
Explosive: 43g H10 or 41g A-IX-1
Powder: 2,8 kg Dgtp 4,7x1,35/490-7,5

The export round in Austria was designated 85mm Leuchtspur-Panzergranatpatrone JPSv/BdZ PD 30/PAK 52/55.

Best Regards, Bob